(00:00) find a lot of people saying this is not wine. Why we should be calling it wine? It's part of the wine family. I mean and we we need to valorize it. No one low alcohol wine market in the European Union represents around 0.4% of the total white market. So it's it's a tiny one but is the the category that is growing the most.
(00:29) First time for example in the US the consumption of spirits which is mainly red to drinks so mix um has uh over the past the consumption of wine and this should ring a bell when someone decides not to drink um today they can take a coffee a tea water soda and the alkalized beer and we are not there a person who decides to take that moment The alkalized beer will maintain will be will create a connection with the beer sector.
(01:08) Welcome to non-alcoholic wine celebrities, a 30inut B2B podcast hosted by me, Vanessa Suslage. I'm the founder of venos.com vin00s.com. In each episode, I sit down with a professional who's shaping the non-alcoholic wire market. So, this show is designed specifically for industry professionals, bringing you sharp insights and strategies from the leaders driving one of the fastest growing categories in beverages.
(01:35) So, thank you so much for being here and taking the time to listen. If you're enjoying the show, please follow us on your favorite listening app or subscribe on YouTube. Every listen and every follow helps us keep this podcast alive and u bring on high quality guests. So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much. Happy listening. Hello and welcome to another episode of the non-alcoholic celebrities podcast.
(02:01) Today I have the pleasure of having Dr. Ignasio Sanchez Rearte who has been the secretary general of the CEV CEV on the EU association representing the interest of European wine companies since June 2015. He is an ergonomic engineer from the public university of Navara in Spain and he obtained his PhD in engineering at the University of Lea. Thanks so much for being here Ignasio.
(02:29) My pleasure. So what does CEV stand for please? Um so you know wine has a strong French tradition. So um the CEV is the acronym of commit European European Committee of Wine Companies. Okay. Thanks so much. So can you briefly explain what this committee does? What is the role of the CEV and how it interacts with both traditional and dealized wine producers? So CV is the voice of European wine companies. So is the trade association that represents uh at European level um and beyond the the interest of European
(03:07) wine companies, the sellers. um our companies uh produce and market the vast majority of the wine from the European Union and when it comes to exports for example our members um represents around 90% of the value of European wine exports and they produce both wine and aromatized wine products. So the vermouth, sangria, glue vine.
(03:37) Uh why um the alkalies and pars the alkaliz low category is important to us because the companies are are in contact with the market and they they have sense for years now an interest and evolution of the market and they want to be part of it. So how many members do you have? Um so my members are national trade association.
(04:02) So the Spanish wine federation, the German one, Italian, we have a 25 members and below them they have the majority of wine sellers from the European Union. Gotcha. Um and so you've been the secretary general since 10 years now. Yes. Congratulations. So how has the conversation around deolization evolved inside the European institutions during that time? uh it has been a tough discussion uh both internally and externally.
(04:26) You know the the wine sector is an orthodox is a sector which is open to modernity but at the time is very traditional before we realized that there was there was a a need to to protect this category to to include them in the complex puzzle of regulation and we start to discuss this in 201617 with the eyes put on the wine reform so the CMO reform uh of 2018 And um we we we spoke with the commission, we present all the data, all the necessities and the European Commission in June 2019 when they presented their reform of the common agricultural policy, they included these two new categories, the
(05:12) alkalized and partially the alkalized wines. So there was the start of the journey from transforming um a a need from companies into um a legislative proposal that was finally adopted in 2021. But it was just again also the beginning of all the of all the journey because once we have those two categories defined we told the commission and the EU policy makers is this good? Thank you very much. But now we need extra rules.
(05:45) We need a better rules to produce them, better rules to present those products, better rules to follow them. So the CN code is also to to be able to monitor the trade of these products and also to to to pass uh this new category also to automatize one product. So we we realized that we needed also um other market was open to receive the alkalized mood.
(06:11) It was a as not of a long list of of requests. So proxies. Yeah. When you say aromatized products. Yeah. Yeah. Alternative wine alternatives as we also call them. Yes. But defining regulation the difference between a normal proxy which is um hardcorer or things like this. In the case of aromatize we have a a piece of legislation that defines all of them.
(06:40) So, sangria, gluine, clar, those are defined and they are included in the strict uh EU regulation. Okay, so this leads me perfectly into my next question. The EU now legally recognizes the alkalized wine uh but definitions are still misunderstood. if I don't know if you agree with that but what is the clearest way to understand where dealized wine fit inside EU wine law today.
(07:12) So what we have today is um two terms that can be used to accomp the the cell termination the term wine. The first one is uh the alkalized wine. So the term the alkalize that can be used for products which are uh below 0.5° of alcohol and that um has been produced exclusively by dekolizing a white.
(07:36) So you take a white you dealkkalize if the final degree of alcohol is 05 or below then you have a the alkalized wine. The second category um is again not that category but the term partially the alkalized wine is for products that has been produced in the same way. You take a wine, then you partially alkalize it. And the final degree of alcohol is between 05 and the minimum category uh the minimum alcohol degree of the category.
(08:05) In the European Union, wine has um a minimum degree of alcohol of 8.5 or 9 in function of where it has been produced. uh which means that if you are between 8.5 and 0.5 you are partially the alkalized one. Okay. And so how does that then translate into labeling and communication? Because that's still quite complex, right? So what are the key labeling rules that non-colic wine producers must get right uh at the moment? So the the the rules are the same that the one that apply to wine.
(08:43) So you have a partially the alkalized wine and you must communicate the list of ingredients, the nutritional declaration. You need to indicate the the country of production. You need to indicate the the producer or the bottler or the vendor. So the rules are the same. They apply two of them.
(09:06) Um the unique uh the most cons the most limiting part is is not on the presentation is on how you produce it because for the moment um the legislation what was prepared in 2019 didn't go too much into the detail. They said you have a wine you dealkize it and you have a partially alkalized one. that we all agree that a parsley alkalized or the alkalized wine you have shaken.
(09:34) I mean you you went through a an intense process and you have eliminated the alcohol which is somehow the the structure of of the building. Um and we we say in the same way that you need specific practices for uh sparkling wines or for liquid wines. We need specific enogical practices for the alkalies and partially the alkalies and this is one of the major pieces that are missing.
(10:01) This is one of the major Sorry, I didn't understand that the the next the next update. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, what can we expect? What's the scoop? Ignasio tell us um the scoop on the enological practices there is one point that will be solved in in in the next month which is um how we produce um uh sparkling uh the alkalized wine or parting the alkalized.
(10:27) So as a processes you have the wine and then the unique thing that you can do is to alkalize you cannot have after CO2 and during the the alkalization you lose all the CO2 all the pressure so you will never be able to have under the E rules uh um a sparkling so bubbles within the alkalized partially the alkaliz so we told that to the commission the commission okay I understand So we are going to authorize the addition of CO2 after the alkalization which means we'll be able to have a what is called iated sparking wines or iodated semi-sparking wines uh that are
(11:07) the alkalized partially the alkalized a it's a first step but we need much more than that it is not part of the legal package called wine package which is today under discussion but we will need to to further develop that. So what does a wine package look like? It's a production definitions.
(11:34) Yeah, you have you you have two main elements in the wine package for which concerns the alkalies and partially the alkalies. One is the enological practices. The one that I mentioned now um and and the second one is the presentation. We we went to the commission and we told the commission look we need we want to valorize these products. We want them to be um attractive to consumers and VAR is the quality and the history it has behind.
(11:58) Hi, this is Vanessa. Just a quick interlude to tell you a little bit more about Venos. We are media publishing platform and uh we welcome anyone and everyone who is a professional in the in the non-alcoholic wine market to talk to us.
(12:18) um if you wanted to be interviewed on this podcast, if you wanted to advertise on this podcast or um be in our newsletter, if your winery rank higher on our website, um if you want to collaborate on our social media, there's plenty of opportunities to partner with us and there is a media pack at the bottom of our website, the very bottom to the left.
(12:42) uh just click mediaact media pack and uh get in touch with us or um or you can email us info@vvenos.com venos that's written v i n 00s.com and um we'll be happy to talk to you even if you just want general chat uh producers want to use better wines to produce those to have a a better even better the alkalized and par alkalized wine And part the term partial alkalize is not very fancy.
(13:16) Maybe in English because it is in English you put all the all the terms together it makes it makes sense but in other in other languages it wasn't very recognizable by the consumer. So we in Spanish in Spanish what is so yeah it's very long. So uh we we said the commission look think about we can give you ideas but think about some terms that can be more more qualitative and the commission came to uh with two terms.
(13:48) The first one is the term alcohol light wine or light alcohol wine for those who are partially the alkalized and the term 000 for the dealized wines that has less than 0.05 degree of alcohol. So not all the no alcohol wines will be able to use the 00 only those who are very very low to the into the content of alcohol and this is under discussion because you cannot imagine the the discussions about those terms.
(14:25) We didn't like very much light as a sector because it we called you soda think about soda and energy and we wanted it uh and we propose uh to the legislature why not using um low alcohol wines which is maybe more understandable or even lower. The problem is um certain people by arrive with political comments and they said no you cannot say it's a low alcohol wine you need to say because people would think that they are using a low alcohol product and there is this favor.
(14:59) So there was a lot of pressure from the Belgian government to change it to reduce alcohol wine. So no light it seems that low will not be neither the landing landing term and it may be reduce. The problem is that reduce uh the the terminology will be um uh wine with alcohol content reduce or low um reduce alcohol wine. Reduce alcohol wine.
(15:32) So in Spanish or in even in Italian is is the worst situation. You will say the problem is the termto. It's a porative one. It means that the the product is not good. A wine which is is not exactly oxidated but is not good. So we said firstly is super long and second in certain languages the term reduce is not working.
(16:02) So let's see what will be the the final um outcome of the political conversations and we will know this. We should know this informally on the 5th of uh December because the the commission, the parliament and the council of your opinion meets together on the fourth to get an agreement on the wine package on this piece of legislation and we hope that uh the day after we'll know what is the the agreement which okay so by the time this episode airs uh we should know and I will add this uh to the end of the of our conversation. Wonderful. So, the Jin ruling, I wanted to approach
(16:49) that. I posted this on LinkedIn and it just went crazy. I had like 80,000 views on that post. Um because the the the worry is I I saw the news. I thought, okay, will this have implication on on the w it seems like people who have commented are very much in two camps. one. We're not sure.
(17:11) Could it influence um or wine rulings or wine? No, I I don't think it will influence. I mean the it is le maybe it was less clear for some people in the split sector uh that you cannot use the the terms which are regulated like gene and whiskey to present a product which is not a gene and whiskey. Um because of this because of and we used to have the same rule in the wine sector.
(17:41) You cannot use the term wine to present a product which is not wine. That was the reason that um seven years ago already we proposed to the European Commission to regulate low alcohol wine partially the alkalized and the alkalized wine to allow our producers to have a strict set of rules to produce them and to present them and use the term wine.
(18:07) So it will not be able I mean the the date is is closed from 2021 in the wine sector that cannot change. Okay. But what are the implications for proxy wines? uh for proxy. So those products that are not within the wine category uh because they don't follow the enological practices because they have aromatized or whatever um or because they have had water to to reduce the the alcohol degree um these they cannot use the term wine in the presentation.
(18:42) It was the case before and it is the case also after the definition because the term wine is is strictly regulated. Even though it doesn't have ethanol, even though it's not alcohol, it has to be okay. Gotcha. And it is no way it's going to change. No, no, no. Checking with you. No the the the good point is that uh so in the spirit sector they will I I guess they will change the regulation because there is an appetite by companies and by consumers to have those mojitos and to have those the alkalizing there is a there is a request by the sector and they will need to change the regulation to authorize the
(19:20) use of the whiskey gene etc when the product is the alkalized in the wine sector it's already the You can do it but under our rules under the our the European Union rules. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So what uh for all the people who are listening to us, the producers who are listening to us, um what guidance would you give would you give them today to stay compliant while still communicating clearly to consumers? So um uh unfortunately maybe it's uh contact us or contact a lawyer to help you in preparing your your national train station to to to have a look at the at
(20:05) the label but the rules are clear. Uh uh the alkalized wine how to produce it is very clear. You need to take out wine. So the the the product the base product should have reached the the category wine at certain point with all the conditions etc. And when you have this wine, you need to dealize it and to apply exclusively the allergical practices that are authorized under the the wine CMO, the wine um law.
(20:37) And then you have the the product for the presentation. If it is between zero and 05, it's the alkalized wine. And the ter the terminology will be um the alkalized wine. To be able to use the term 0.0 in the presentation, you will need to be even below. It's a point still under discussion 0.05 or 01.
(21:03) But this is the conditional to put 0.0. If you are between 05 and the minimum of the category so 8.5 or 09 the terminology would be interrogation point low alcohol wine partially um sorry lower alcohol wine light alcohol wine or reduced alcohol wine one of those three options and for the production is exactly the same.
(21:37) You take a wine, you partially de alkalize it, you abide 100% to the enological practices that are uh that are included in the wine legislation and then you have your partially the alkalized one. Great. Okay. Sorry about uh the industry growth. I mean you're so well placed to tell us about it. What do you think um what long-term industry shifts can we expect? So we see alcoholic wine consumption is declining and non-alcoholic wine seems to be growing.
(22:11) So what what's what will we see what what will happen in terms of business models, productions, regulation? Where do you see the biggest changes coming in the future? I mean we need to have a look at which is the dimension of this category. Now no one low alcohol wine market in the European Union represents around 0.4% of the total wine market.
(22:38) So it's it's a tiny one but is the the category that is growing the most double figures obviously it's so small that having double figures is easier than if you are a Jose or but it remains small it's around above 320 million euros uh value and we are talking about uh a little bit more than 40 million liters of of product. So it is well barized. Um consumption struct is declining in traditional markets.
(23:08) Wine consumption is declining. The alkalized and parcid alkalize is growing but uh I will be misleading people if I said um one will meet the other. So the the loss of wine consumption will be compensated by this new category. I mean for the moment we don't have those figures but it's extremely important to invest in this category.
(23:36) Firstly because it's growing secondly as a positioning. Um if we look at the reasons why traditional wine consumption is going down. It is not that the youth is healthier than a generation. Um it is not exactly that is the the the patterns of consumption and the moments of consumption of alcoholic beverage has changed. Wine is intrinsically linked to to a food to a dinner to a a table. No.
(24:14) And and the moments in which the young generations of between 20 and 35 are are drinking have changed a little bit. They are putting more money on the wine when they are deciding to drink, but they are drinking on less occasions. And when they are uh drinking or deciding to drink an alcoholic beverage, wine is not there is is we we are not meeting the expectations of or we are not connecting we are not making them be great about our category.
(24:44) Um for the first time for example in the US the consumption of spirits which is mainly red to drinks so mix um has uh overpassed the consumption of wine and this should ring a bell said we are not in the moment in which they are drinking and we need to propose more innovation and we need to propose products that are also an alternative to other non-alcoholic beverage.
(25:13) We need to maintain people within our family. If we are not able to when someone decides not to drink. Um today they can take a coffee, a tea, water, soda and the alkalized beer. Also you have those virgin versions of spirits. And we are not there. A person who decides to take that moment akalized beer will maintain will be will create a connection with the beer sector.
(25:47) And the day he decided to the taste will will evolve the cannon of um of of uh of tasting will evolve and they will be closer to the beer sector. So we must be the to propose a qualitative alternative. So the day they decide to say okay today I'm not driving or uh I I can't drink or I decided to drink um they go to the wine sector because they already in contact with our fun.
(26:19) So what do we need? We need more marketing, right? We need the trade also to to help us to offer public wines in a certain way. The the crisis we are going through is is helping um this debate five six years ago. I remember being in the European parliament uh defending these new categories and a big part of the wine sector was saying uh I'm not throwing you stones to the head because we are in the parliament and it's not very polite.
(26:48) uh just explaining but yeah they said wine a wine is a wine we should not use the term wine to defend those product which are not whiny and I was telling them I agree with you if I decide one day to take a a harand reservoa beautiful bod whatever omeok obviously I'm tasting a product if I have those wines the alkaliz it's a different product.
(27:16) Nobody will will will say the the contrary, but we are meeting an expectation which is different in a moment of time of our consumer. Today the crisis is helping because people really realize that we need to to to move from our tradition to adapt. Exactly. The term is adapt.
(27:39) So how how can we how would how can we help being taken seriously by the mainstream wine trade? Uh I think the first thing is we need to have a positive narrative about wine. Wine in all the forms. Uh not saying uh people is not drinking uh alcohol so we need to to to jump into the alkalized but the alkalized wines are a bad product.
(28:05) This in summaries the voices that you may heard and in your post you were mentioned your post of last week you find a lot of people saying this is not wine. why we should be calling white. It's part of the white family. I mean, and we we need to valorize it and we need to present it not in a fight against the traditional whites. So, we need to create a positive narrative.
(28:27) With a positive narrative, it will be easier to to connect with uh with the consumers and more people will be attracted uh to those products. more producers will see the interest, more investments, more development and it's the positive espiron we need to to create. Great. So looking ahead, what is the one piece of regulatory advice that you would give non-alcoholic wine founders? Um what would it be? What would you say to them? So on the yeah on the on the regulation there is one element that is fundamental. Um I think we need to maintain a a
(29:04) seriousness and and a commitment uh to the society and not to say okay it's a product without alcohol so I'm framing it for minors. I know it is not the case. I know that miners will not be uh interested in in the alkalized wine. Um the level of price or the category of the product is not interested to them.
(29:29) we should clearly state that this is a product for uh adult people. So it's a responsible marketing we need to do. Um the and that's how you present how you frame how you market. The second point is the EU has a vast program of um of help uh for the promotion. This promotion is mainly based on PIO and PGI1. So denomination of origin and geographical indications.
(30:05) We need to start the discussion pushed by the producers to modify the technical files so that one day we have a Cava uh the technical file of Cava that says we have a new category in Cava which is partially the alkalized Cava or you have a wines from Castial Alamancha A GI uh that includes also these new categories because we need to this would help to create more quality and to get into the promotion flow which is important.
(30:41) Okay. So they need to lobby they need to come to you. We we need to lobby ex we need to lobby internally because in the end is a a PO a PGI is um it's an association. We are the owners the great growers the cooperatives the sellers we are the owners of this and we need to frame oursel our future. We don't need to be afraid.
(31:07) We need to maintain a strict super um strict approach on quality and we need to do it because if not companies who have a brand name they said I will go beyond that like I I I put one one example I put it at Spanish example same Spanish kodi or or fet they they don't really need they they will not need the the e rules they have they are so powerful as a brand that it will say this is a product the consumers will trust us because they trust uh the brand. Instead we want this to be developed as a as a wine sector opportunity. For that we need the rules
(31:47) and we need rules that are qualitative. We need flet to be able to to frame if they want under under the cava their partially the alkalized wine because it will be of interest of everybody because the the small cava bett who doesn't have a strong and inventive business um who doesn't have a strong brand it will be more difficult for for him to move in the sector we need those qualitative reference which are our PDOS's and our PGIs so we need to lobby ourself to be ambitious, stick together basically. Sorry. So, your bold prediction for
(32:27) 2026, what what's going to what's going to happen to the evolution of the alkalized wine in the EU? Uh, I think it will I mean the growth has been um amazing. Um and there are there is there is on on the production side there is an evolution we have since in the last years I mean to be prime the first the alkalized wines or parts the alkalized wines that companies were producing they were not taking their best wines to do it obviously because it's going to go through a strong process and they were not taking super good wines to dealize them and this has
(33:08) changed So the quality because of the raw materials used. So the the base wine and the quality of the technology I mean we will be surprised. Uh last year I was in in C in Milano. I taste some uh the alkalized wines. The the new technology was was superb. So 2026 for me will be a year of a super increase of quality of these products.
(33:36) So don't be afraid. try one of them. Um on the other point is the uh quantity of investments the presence of these of these products. Today it is quite limited. You have some companies uh small bunch of companies who have been investing. Italy has not been able to invest in in the alkalies because the ministry the minister of agriculture of Italy didn't uh modify the internal rules so that wineries could deanalize wines.
(34:16) So while from 2021 the alkalized wine was a reality in all Europe in Italy they couldn't. they were trapped in their internal regulation. But they have solved this. Uh the the the Italian government was very skeptical about this new category. They said, "Oh, it's it's going to give a bad image to our wines and they they have done it slowly to adapt their national legislation but it is done.
(34:43) So having a an investments arrive into Italy. So winery said I need to do that and we know the dynamism of Italian wine market and the Italian wine producers. So I think that there will be and as I said an increase of the quality sharp increase because of the uh increased investments all around Europe and in Italy especially.
(35:08) I think we will see a booming of this category and booming at the scale of this category but we will see a 2026 where poof it will be we will be tapping the potential great news thank you thanks so much Ignatio thanks for all the work you do thanks for this interview thanks for your time and um and I'll be in touch on the 5th to find out what happened with thanks so much have a lovely day to you thank you cheers
