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And Gnista Spirits is a wine alternative brand. The first one that we're having on this podcast. I'm very excited. >> I'm not trying to make imitations. I don't think you can make a wine and and without alcohol and get something that's uh it won't satisfy me. It will be for me it will I will compare too much to wine and since I drink wine I mean I know there are many many people who don't and for them it's good enough but for me I drink wine.
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I will compare it to wine because I realized that the market for these kind of you know crafty strange drinks uh that I am representing it's not big enough in one country. You need to have you need to make it global right but it's not even a trend. Maybe it's a trend in the in the biggest uh sense of the word.
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Uh so but it's unstoppable and it's a global one. So we, you know, as this happens, what are we replacing the old stuff with? >> Welcome to Non-alcoholic Wine Celebrities, a 30 minutes B2B podcast hosted by me, Vanessa Suzage. I'm the founder of Venus.com, vin00s.com. In each episode, I sit down with a professional who's shaping the non-alcoholic Y market.
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So, this show is designed specifically for industry professionals, bringing you sharp insights and strategies from the leaders driving one of the fastest growing categories in beverages. So, thank you so much for being here and taking the time to listen. If you're enjoying the show, please follow us on your favorite listening app or subscribe on YouTube.
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Every listen and every follow helps us keep this podcast alive and u bring on high quality guests. So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much. Happy listening. So, hello and welcome to the non-alcoholic wine celebrities podcast. Today, I have the pleasure to have Erica Eklund with me.
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She is the founder of Gnista Spirits and Gnista Spirits is a wine alternative brand, the first one that we're having on this podcast. I'm very excited. Erica launched Gnista in 2019 where the target is to redefine what a spirit and red wine can be. In her own words, we're entering a future where most people just want the taste, not the alcohol.
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So the natural starting point for Gnista was the sensory requirements. Uh she asks what is the essence of great wine drinking moment given that the buzz factor is removed. So, she allowed herself to not be restricted to how things are usually done or to imitate the taste of alcoholic versions, but instead has a focus on creating liquids that actually do the job.
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You're very welcome on this show, uh, Erica. Thanks so much. Please, um, take us straight back to 2019. What sparked Gnista? >> Thanks, and thanks for having me. It's really nice to meet you, Vanessa, and to be part of this. Well, in 2019, I worked with another I've always worked with food and food and branding uh essentially and I I think it's one of the great pleasures in life uh to eat and drink and uh I mean I think it's we're so lucky that we do it every day.
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Uh and at this point I was working with another drink startup uh and seedlip was launched and it's it's interesting because these days uh do you know seedlip? >> No >> no I mean it was it's it was huge. It was the first non-alcoholic gin. >> It was uh you know backed by Jajio Steel Ventures. I mean it's really huge.
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So So Seedlip is the brand that created the the category non-alcoholic spirit. Uh, and I was working with another drinks brand and I saw this seedlip and the kind of new, you know, non-alcoholic gins coming up and I wanted to challenge that a bit because I could I could for me I mean obviously when it comes to nonal the driving forces one of the biggest driving forces is health right um but you know it's it's health is a very broad you know counting calories is one aspect just not being hangover or being able to go out and jog on Saturday morning that's also part of health right so for me um I found this category so interesting uh and I exactly what I what written you know at the start we've had wines uh and alcoholic beverages for
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ages for thousands of years and they are there for a reason right uh we have you know wine pairing it with food. We have uh cocktails. We um and up till now, up till you know the point where everyone has been drinking more or less, more or less all grown-ups, they have done a job.
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But now, as we're moving into this future, all of these kind of nice times in life, they will still be there. We will still have the nice dinner and we'll still, you know, treat ourselves uh on the balcony after work and meet friends, but people don't want the alcohol. This is this is uh it's not even a trend.
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Maybe it's a trend in the in the biggest uh sense of the word. Uh so but it's unstoppable and it's a global one. So we, you know, as this happens, what are we replacing the old stuff with and why? That's really, you know, what I'm interested in. Uh-huh. >> So, um, and since I'm not from, uh, the wine industry, uh, I'm not from, I don't have a distillery background, I don't really care whether wine, you know, has traditionally been made from grapes.
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I care about something else. And I care about the liquid. I care that for me I think most the problem with non-alcoholic drinks uh you know traditionally this is changing a lot which is fun and great is that for me they are either too sweet or too mild. So all of these kind of you know nice mild botanical beverages they don't really work for me.
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I I I might I mean beer I think beer is nice but other than that I might as well just have a glass of water. So like my my kind of benchmark is if one of my three uh girls like it I'm not you know it's not good enough >> then you don't >> then I don't no exactly so um was born out of this you know I wanted to challenge like okay so can I nudge this you know can I make something else can I and how is this going to look and if I listen to the experts the mixologists and the bartenders and silers uh and if I build drinks from scratch uh using the methods that I know which is uh cooking and great ingredients. Well, then let's see, you know, let's see where we end up. Um yeah, >> and that's how Agnesa was born. >> That's how so I started doing my floral wormwood, the vermage style. This was before COVID and then during COVID I did
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Baraloque. We had a we had a massive interest in the states and so I did like a Kickstarter campaign because we couldn't really you know all very limited and then yeah the range is just grown. So then I figured I mean you working with wines and this is one of the like when you do sparkling sparkling is nice spark sparkles bubbles they make everything a bit more fun >> but still red wines this was like one of the areas that I wanted to tackle.
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So, uh, two and a half years ago, I did two red alternatives and, uh, and this summer I also launched against the blonde. So, one crisp instead of a Reeseling and one Frankie instead of an orange wine. >> I can't wait to try them. I haven't tried them yet. Disclaimer. Um, but let's let's get the elephant out of the of the room, right? Um, wine alternatives.
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monitors it is is like a gray zone in the industry still >> um so it's it's not bound by legal definitions or appellations unlike um people who want to be called wine or brands don't want to be called wine so it allows for a lot of freedom right on your site you're very free to do what you like and um and the other question I have for you is is it is it a problem not to be able to call yourself a wine Uh I I I think it's there are lots of my my range of drinks they are very strange like in general people will be either very happy or very disappointed because they taste a lot and they taste different. Yeah. So if I would I'm putting them into bottles that look like wine bottles and spirit bottles. Um, and I make them in such a way that you can keep these spirit bottles on the shelf
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behind you also after opening. Um, this is a bit problematic because it gives people a picture of what the drink is going to taste like, right? Uh, but then again, if I wouldn't have put it in a wine bottle, it would just be strange period and no one would know like when to serve it.
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So, this is my starting point is the occasion when we are to drink it. Um, okay. And is it a problem? Um, it's it's it's more kind of I don't like the word wine alternative. I like the word proxy, but it doesn't work in all languages. Some people don't know it yet. Um, you know, we we operate in so many different markets and like in so in Dubai for example, we they want us to keep the original bottle, same wine alternative which we put on because it's a legal requirement in the states for example. Mhm.
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>> But they also want us to put like a sticker on top of it. Uh so that because we're not allowed to call it anything that has to do with wine in the Arabic states. Uh so you have all of these different um and and I guess like the it's problematic, but it's also fun and creative and I don't really care.
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I think I think what what bothers me the most is the name. I think wine attentive is boring. I think non wine is boring. Uh yeah, but you know this is what we have to deal with. So I'm just I'm sticking around and then at some point we will not be able to call it non-alcoholic spirits either are we? I mean >> and at point I will just change the name and yeah.
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>> Yeah. And I heard that there are new regulations coming um next year from the EU. >> In fact we have a we have a very interesting interview on that very soon. So um recommend listening to it. I will. >> I hope I can keep my the labels I have on the bottles. We'll see. >> Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah. And then I think there's quite a bit of change coming. So, good to get prepared. Hi, this is Vanessa. Just a quick interlude to tell you a little bit more about Venos. We are media publishing platform and uh we welcome anyone and everyone who is a professional in the in the non-alcoholic wine market to talk to us.
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Um, if you wanted to be interviewed on this podcast, if you wanted to advertise on this podcast or um, be in our newsletter, if your winery rank higher on our website, um, if you want to collaborate on our social media, there's plenty of opportunities to partner with us. And there is a media pack at the bottom of our website, the very bottom to the left.
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uh just click media packact media pack and uh get in touch with us or um or you can email us info@ venos.com venos that's written v i n00 s.com and um we'll be happy to talk to you even if you just want a general chat. Cheers. >> Um at least >> it's Vanessa this is such a creative industry.
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It's so much fun and I think it's it's changing so rapidly and it's been a bit wild west and anyone has been able to do anything >> and the competition is so low which means that everyone is kind of friends and it's you know I I love it. >> Yeah, me too. Me too. And I'm just new to it and I love it. >> Yeah.
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Um so um talking still about this uh this elephant in the room um do do you believe consumers care about the distinction between a a wine alternative or not? Are we are we complicating things? Do you think they they care? >> Uh I I don't think they care. I I think they care about the the experience they get when they consume something.
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Uh, and I think for most people they will um like the first few times it will need to be a curated experience somehow anyways like you need to go to a restaurant and have a sum pouring it with like a uh and this goes for because I guess when it comes to dealized wines the perception of them being so bad.
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I mean this is something they I I guess the manufacturers of dekalized wines have to deal with. Uh so we all have different like we all need to have people trying them you know >> uh trying another time at different occasion and then um >> so yes maybe complicating it uh a little bit if when you when you don't want to drink alcohol but you want to have the experience well then >> exactly >> I mean that's that's the starting point >> as in ma exactly uh so let's talk about your amazing uh marketing I mean incredible you're in so many countries. And then I I I was really um amazed by your Amore Princess Zero Alcohol Collection, which is served will be served fleetwide on on Princess cruises uh which reaches over 2 million guests a year. >> 17 and a half. I've read >> 17 and a half. >> Yeah. >> Guests. Oh my.
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>> Wow. >> I know. This is all very exciting. They have no idea about the quantities. I don't know about the quantities. I've just I've just produced loads to stock up. Um hopefully, you know, >> that's that's that's Wow. And tell us how did this partnership uh start? >> And did you pitch to them or they came they came to you? >> Okay.
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>> This is this is this is how it normally goes. So I think all my marketing I've spent zero money on marketing since we started because I spent all my money on liquids. >> Okay. Um and when and also we we've been fortunate enough to be to have like to get a good SEO basis and PR from the start. >> Yeah.
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>> Because what we do is different. Uh and this means that people find Mista and when they find Mista, I will be there and I will give them bottles uh and they will try. So this is what happened with um this is what happens with all the like I when I launched uh six years ago my I didn't do it the because I realized that the market for these kind of you know crafty strange drinks uh that I am representing it's not big enough in one country you need to have you need to make it global right so uh I didn't have a starting point saying oh let's go to Sweden and then Scandinavia and then Germany but I just say Hey world, you know, here's Gnista. Who wants to try? And you know, some picked it up and that has So this is this is still how I sell Gista. I sell it to people being in touch and then and then they get to try it and um many including the, you know, beverage director at Princess uh enjoys them and
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they want to stock it. uh which is fantastic because there I think therefore um when you read about um like the way that the industry and media wants to present alcohol-f free and especially this kind of modern alcohol-f free uh it says like it's a boom it's been a boom for years like you know the industry grows with xy z% blah blah blah uh that is I don't think that it like for each when it comes to these kind of new products that needs to be curated people to try them. Well, I think it's it's a slower growth rate. Uh, and you need to be very selected. You need to have good partners. They need I mean, they need to know what they're doing. They need to have both stamina in terms of money and a heart and like, you know, buds, taste buds. Um, and so I think, um, it's, you know, it's it's it's lucky that we can um that we've been able to
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work the the way we do. with Princess and and others. So, no marketing, no trade shows, PR you did at the beginning, tastings, influencers, collaborations. >> Yeah. And when they reach out, which they do, and I say, "Sure, I'll send you bottles. Is that enough?" And most say, "Sure, yeah, why not?" And um trade shows I tend to so the way that I work is I try to help the our importing partners.
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So when they participate, I I go there and I represent Nista and I So that's uh um that's how I work. I think it's very important to be to be a brand that um shows up. >> Yeah. Yeah. So in which countries are you present? Where do you >> uh Canada, the states, very soon? Mexico.
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They just ordered uh funky a funky and then it's most countries in Europe uh and Singapore uh the Arabic Dubai um the yeah the Arabic region countries uh very soon and uh very soon also the Philippines, Thailand. >> Yeah, I think that's it. It's it's 12 countries in total. 12 countries. Amazing. So, how many people are behind Gista today? H how do you make this all happen? Sounds like a lot of work.
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>> Most me and then I have uh and then I have um Anna who um who's my left hand and we obviously have like uh you know the the production crew, Max who does like you know the shipping like all the ecom and web stuff. Uh, and I have Ben who does the um more kind of, you know, creative stuff that I don't do myself.
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I I am I am mostly a creative person. I'm not mostly um a business builder. >> I think someone has to do that in the this is my vision. I just want to take Nista to the stage where no one can say we don't need to have dried apricots or raisins in here. Just add some, you know, syrup. I don't want that.
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I just want to take my steps to that stage where it can't be diluted and then someone else can can do you know can scale it properly and I can do the marketing. >> Okay. Got you. Wonderful. And um design pillars talking about uh creativity you mentioned tannins bitterness and structure are your design pillars.
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So how do you achieve that technically? What what happens? You don't have grapes. You don't have alcohol. So how how does it work? What's the base? How does it >> what's the magic >> in most of the products? Uh rhubarb juice. Uh I have rhubarb juice and sour cherry. Uh as kind of round half and then it's different extracts.
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Uh >> okay. >> All of them have um because when I when I create the drinks, I look at the entire um obviously the entire you know from nose to uh aftertaste and >> um And so there it goes both for what kind of ingredients and how they are treated. Um and all of them contain fresh ginger uh a black pepper called vinllin.
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It's a single estate from Vietnam. Very floral and and also like a habanero extract that's very very strong. I think we have 125 grams per thousand kilos. So it's super strong. >> Um this is all handmade. Uh so it means that the batches vary but it also means that it's uh I mean we need to have a musend because you know all the ingredients I mean you can imagine like rhubarb juice that's being harvested in May >> compared to rhubarb juice harvested in in August.
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I mean it's a completely different like the the sugar levels the acidity. So it's it's a lot of tasting and comparing and measuring of like different uh to get it as close as we want like to the to the reference. Uh but this I think also consumers in general are um they are aware that which we have to thank you know the wine industry that each each you know year >> each year would be different >> variations. Yeah.
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Uh so this is this is one example. So like the ginger like it gives the first kind of you know whatever burn and then you have the black pepper and then eventually you have the habaneria. So you create a curve. Um I use um for body I use just normal sugar beet syrup that's grown in like sugar beads are kind of this size um that grow here in Swedish.
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just a little bit before mouth feel. Um, my two latest, the blondes, they have only like 20 calories, so they are so, in my opinion, a bit too unsweet. Um, >> Mhm. >> because when you don't have the alcohol, as you say, you need to >> you need to maximize everything else. You need to like make concentrates.
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You need to you cannot only use French oak chips. You need to have like American and French and treat them different ways. And so the the smoky one um this one >> Mhm. >> it's um because I what I'm doing I'm not trying to make imitations. I don't think you can make a wine and and without alcohol and get something that's uh it won't satisfy me.
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It will be for me it will I will compare too much to wine and since I drink wine I mean I know there are many many people who don't and for them it's good enough but for me I drink wine so I will compare it to wine and so I'm trying to find like tasting notes uh so what are the tasting notes of a typical northern Italian wine you know from pimontto well you have the cherries you have the licorice you have pepper you have you know tannins smoke uh violet and then and then I add these stuff and I treat them different ways. So, I was going to say with this one, the smoky one, we uh I think there are many fantastic non-alcoholic whiskies that they have an amazing smell which means that you can use them for cocktails or mocktails. But then there is if you dealkize the same as with wine if you dealkkalize whiskey
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>> you have taste but you like the body there is hardly any body it's it's very if you enjoy a normal whiskey you will be disappointed right >> so um so instead we smoke um sugar beat syrup again uh using birch and coffee wood so that means when you smoke the syrup you get like the syrup in the body and this I think is so fantastic because what happens is if you mix if you want to have like a whiskey drink and you mix this barrel with another, you know, great non-alcoholic whiskey that gives like a whiskey like nose. Um, you get something that's perfect. >> Oh, I can't wait to try. You're making me very thirsty. >> You like whiskey? >> I love whiskey. >> Oh, fun. >> I'm a whiskey girl. >> Great. Great. I would love to try it. So that's great that we're talking about R&D because my next question was
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um around AI and fermentation science and novel ingredient ingredients that are coming. Um do you think do you think it's going to change a lot in the next few years what what you're doing at the moment? Are you like every year innovating and do you think it's going to accelerate? I think it's going to accel if if we look at the industry as a as a whole.
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Um I think it will accelerate because I think there are more companies and more brains and more you know being inspired by others and picking like the the raisins and making their own things and that in itself will accelerate things. Mhm. >> I don't think necessarily that AI uh or just like general knowledge uh will will do it.
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Uh I think when it novel ingredients, yes. Uh new fermentation techniques, um new um especially like ease um Asian ingredients and techniques I think will um will will make drinks more fun and more funky and more um more kind of spiritlike or alcoholic. Um but um I'm I'm not sure like when I when I launched Nista I figured I would be so late on this board like someone else will do it and to this day like no one or at least not many have copied what I do.
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>> So I think I think there are many other many other boundaries and you know Yeah. >> Mhm. Maybe it's not that easy. Erica >> uh Well, I think like making drinks is not that hard. Uh, running a business is hard. Scaling something is very hard, especially when you need to like because I haven't chosen the the raising money way because I think for me it's it's more about again changing what's out there and seeing like how can I be a force? Can Mr.
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be a force? uh >> and and see if we can find new ways, new liquids inspiring others. Uh and in ways I think um we've already done that which is um which I'm very proud of. But it is it is hard like when you don't have enough cash, you need to produce more, you need to pay for production, but the margins don't cover, you know, the production expenses.
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Um, uh, it's, yeah, I think it's, uh, it's a challenge. It's a very fun challenge and I think many non-agolic brands would actually benefit from helping one another more. >> Yeah. Um, but you seem to be doing very well. So, continue on that. >> I think just for anyone in this business, sticking around.
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I think that's the key. Like, not really just sticking around and then we'll all survive and we'll be happy. I read somewhere ages ago that they're like 4,000 gin brands. >> Oh, >> I mean it's so few of us and the days, you know, that has the week have so many days. So >> um so tell me what's next for the my last uh two questions like new markets, new categories, collaborations.
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>> New markets definitely. >> Okay. Uh and yes, new markets and I I think the the fact that that um princes uh I mean that's huge in the sense that yes they are luxury but they are not uh like the speak easy bar in Singapore. They are something else and they target a different group and I think this this industry is very like the travel retail industry is really interesting.
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Great hospitality. Wonderful. And your prediction for 2026? What will surprise us most about the alcohol-free industry? Uh I think there will be more I think there will be more tea based drinks. Uh generally tea is uh tea is so much more than just tea, isn't it? uh and the way you can treat it and like the whole eastern uh influence.
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So I think I mean functional drinks um with adaptogens etc. It's it's been a lot of talk about that and I think it will maybe continue but I think um in the end people want unique, interesting and great tasting um drinking experiences >> and that's what they're going to get in 2026. Yeah. Or more and more. >> Yeah. >> Wonderful. Thanks so much Erica.
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It's been a pleasure having you. Cheers. >> Thank you. Cheers. Bye.